Recently a comment on my post about vegan pizza got me thinking about my policy on cross-contamination when eating out. Obviously, this is something I have thought about for a few years, so I’ll try to some up my views in just a few points, since I don’t want to bore you.
Anyway, here was the original comment:
I work at a pizza place that sounds a lot like Ramunto’s…and “cross-contamination” happens all the time. Your hand goes straight from the ham to the pineapple or sausage to the black olives. Or cheese accidentally get dropped in the sauce…actually, the cheese gets everywhere.
Just out of curiosity…is this a concern for you, that animal products are likely mixed in to your vegan pizza even if only in minimal amounts?
To answer this, I’ll first get into the reasons why I am a vegan, and how I try to flesh that out in practice:
- Ethics: Basically, I think it’s an ethical obligation to reduce suffering wherever possible. I believe that animals have developed enough nervous systems to feel pain, and as such, it’s reasonable to expect that they do not like dying or being kept as slaves for food. Because I can be perfectly healthy without animal products, I feel ethically obligated to be vegan.
- Environment: Eating lower on the food chain reduces waste and environmental impact. Don’t believe me? Look it up, :p. I don’t feel like explaining. But imagine how much food and water it takes to keep a cow alive for long enough to get to the dinner table. It’s a lot more than it would take if it were just the human eating veggies and such. Cows aren’t efficient power converters.
- Health: I’m not super worried about my health, but I try to take care, and I see where veganism can fit in there.
Now, how does this apply to cross-contamination? Well, first I should talk about what that is in a broad sense, I guess. Cross-contamination happens when things are fried in the same oil, cooked in the same pan, or when something might get dripped when moving stuff around. It’s why a lot of products say “manufactured in a facility that also produces blah, blah, blah.” In those circumstances cross-contamination could harm people with serious allergies. Here’s how I feel in regards to the reasons why I’m vegan:
- Ethics: I am still electing vegan choices and I can’t expect restaurant workers to be infallible. My family owns a farm, and you’d be surprised how many snakes and stuff get chopped up when you’re harvesting crops, but does this mean you’re not going to eat soy beans? It wasn’t the intention and isn’t really preventable without extreme means, so I don’t think it bears much ethical concern here.
- Environment: Since you’re not electing extra non-vegan things, and the quantity is almost non-existent, I don’t see how this is an issue.
- Health: See above.
Now, to sound a little angry about it, I think getting overly concerned with cross-contamination when eating out is pretty worthless. Are you vegan because you like the label and seeming hardcore or because you’re acting in accordance with convictions? Personally, I tend not to tell people I’m vegan, because people thinking whatever about me isn’t going to affect what my vegan actions are doing. In the same way, not eating out or having unrealistic expectations of chefs isn’t going to change the impact of vegan dining choices.
My conclusion: be vegan, don’t be stuck up.
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great post. i agree. stumbled!
Wow, I wish more Vegans thought like you! You seem to understand that the world does not need to adjust to accommodate your personal choice.
I am a meat eater and have grown very tired of my next door neighbor having the need to make a rude, or hateful,comment, every time I choose to grill a steak. I don’t harass her for eating the way she does, and I think she could learn a lot from someone like you. She seems to feel that because she has chosen to be a vegan, everyone who has not made that choice for them self is wrong and needs to be chastised.
Hey quarrygirl! Thanks for your kind words.
Thanks to you too, meat eater. I used to be like you, and I understand where you’re coming from. I honestly believe in an ethical obligation to do this, but that doesn’t absolve me or any other vegan from an obligation to be kind and civil to other people.
benjo, great article! Your three reasons are the exact reasons I gave a friend a couple of weekends ago as to my I am vegan. Also, your Ethics portion sounds a lot like Peter Singer’s philosophy. You probably have heard of him already, but if you haven’t read his NY Times book review and/or book entitled “Animal Liberation”.
More related to the topic: I used to not care as much about cross contamination when I first became vegan, but now, I have begun to buy all my own silverware, sponges, etc. that my two roommates and I used to share. I do it mostly because I get grossed out and do not tend to care this much when I go out to eat. Do you have any views on this, or do you just think I am being too picky?
Sorry, but I’m not about to eat corpse. You may chose to do that. There is no excuse for a restaurant to cross contaminate. What if someone has allergies? One bite of a potential contaminant means they’re dead. As vegans we should make a point ALWAYS to make damn sure they change (use) their gloves, keep our food separate, and use proper food service techniques. Do you care if someone has just smoked a cigarette, or even picked at their crotch before they’ve prepared your food? Hey, the percentage of contamination is minimal, right? No, even if you get .00002% of a meat product in your food, you’re still eating it. Be clean in your diet, make food establishments actually care about cleanliness themselves, and you’ve made it infinitely better for everyone, even those allergy sufferers.
Being vegan means a lifestyle immersion. I don’t think you’ve grown to that point yet; it’s the vegetarians that don’t care about all that stuff.
I find it comical that you challenge my growth. I used to be like you when I thought being vegan was some stupid game to show off so that others though I was cool and good be a prick about it.
What do you gain by acting like that? Self-satisfaction? If that’s what it’s about then we’re not doing the same thing. You might as well masturbate.
Christopher -
Thanks for the comment. I do know Singer and have read “Animal Liberation.” I tend not to refer to him because I don’t really like him that much, and I’m not a utilitarian within society.
I feel the same way as you. In my apartment, with my roommates, everything is separate. When asked the other day if I would eat a cow if it came up to me and fell over dead over natural causes, I said no because I have no desire. I do find it gross. But if I’m trying to eat on campus and the only option I have is a vegan sandwich grilled on the vegan half of the same grill, well then, I’m going to have to put up with it. I’m not going to die to prove I’m better than someone else, especially when making non-ethically motivated choices is just making less choices.
Unlike “Those Damn Vegans” I don’t see eating as an us against them battle.
As a Vegan College student myself, I see things exactly the same way. Good on ya’.
Hey Nathan -
Thanks for the kind words. I can be a little belligerent about these things just because I’m always getting attacked. I usually choose not to say anything to avoid the situation, so it’s nice to have some support when I finally do say something.
Hmmmm – while I do agree that one shouldn’t worry tooooo much about cross-contamination, it’s just courtesy that restaurants should do their best to avoid it.
Meat’s kinda gross to me, after 18yrs of vegetarianism. I don’t like it, and it’s an extremely strong tasting thing to find in food.
Mind you, if I think about it too much eggs and milk are pretty gross too and although I eat minimal amounts of both I don’t exclude them totally.
But back to the point – I don’t want to eat meat, whether or not it’s been put on my food accidentally or deliberately. So if I eat somewhere and notice cross-contamination I won’t kick up a fuss, but I’ll avoid them where possible in the future.
>> I find it comical that you challenge my growth. I used to be like you when I thought being vegan was some stupid game to show off so that others though I was cool and good be a prick about it.
I said it was a “game to show off” when? I merely tried explaining that it is entirely important to assert your rights to business who would stomp on them otherwise. The moment you start flinging words around like “prick” you completely lose your debate.
And yes, I damn well will challenge your growth as you seem to be lost in the teenage mentality. Get in people’s faces or you have lost ALL your debates. You’ve just inferred that you could care less that people are walking all over our cause.
>>What do you gain by acting like that? Self-satisfaction? If that’s what it’s about then we’re not doing the same thing. You might as well masturbate.
Pretty low blow, kid. I get better maturity from the trade channel in World of Warcraft.
The vegan network where I am have changed the way businesses approach us with our aggressive attitude. I’m sorry you seem to have been socialized to be a sheep in your matters. Veganism is a life altering decision. Get in it all the way or clear the way for the people who actually care. Don’t bash your own kind.
The allergies comment was my favorite. Some people have no idea. I had a young guy working for me who was deathly allergic to onions of all things. No exaggeration, deathly allergic! He could not eat out as well because even if a cook thought he was using onions there was the cross contamination factor!
Great post and discussion!
TDV -
You’re adversarial attitude is the reason why I don’t associate with many vegans, and why I don’t think there is such a thing as a “vegan cause.” I don’t think restaurant owners want to trample all over our rights. In fact, I don’t think we have any right to go into anyone’s business and demand they change their offerings for us. If I ran a vegan restaurant and someone wanted something prepared some way I didn’t know how, I would tell them I’m sorry, and that wouldn’t be trampling on their rights.
“Life altering decision” my ass. You change what you eat and what you wear. I don’t feel any different or act any different. It’s not a religion. But then I guess you the type that wants to treat it like such and go on a crusade against the heathens.
If that’s the case, I’d gladly be against your approach. I don’t agree with it, I think it’s silly. You’re not my “own kind,” so don’t try to create artificial groups to put me in; one shared practice does not make either of us the other’s kind.
However, I’d probably be your friend in real life, as I have many friends who are in PeTA and do canvassing in real life, so don’t be so belligerent. If you want to argue your point, feel free, but avoiding the issues and calling me “kid” or some sort of back-stabber isn’t really holding a conversation. Feel free to do that, but at least include some content too.
Tucson Bass Player -
Thanks for the comment. Allergies are definitely an issue for some of my friends, so I can sympathize a bit. Unfortunately, since their predicament is a matter of life and death they don’t really have a choice. I see the importance of veganism in making certain choices and asserting the reasons for those, and not expecting them all to be carried out perfectly, perhaps. But I don’t see that affecting the cause or practice substantially.
>>You’re adversarial attitude is the reason why I don’t associate with many vegans, and why I don’t think there is such a thing as a “vegan cause.” I don’t think restaurant owners want to trample all over our rights.
It’s been proven time and time again that business will take shortcuts over all rights in order to maximize profit. This is yet another example. And everyone knows how to prepare something cleanly, your vegan restaurant idea has no base.
>>But then I guess you the type that wants to treat it like such and go on a crusade against the heathens.
We HAVE been. How the hell do you think proposal 2 in california was passed (do you even KNOW what it was about)? People sitting on their asses blogging about how we should be apathetic about animal rights? Apathy is for the carnivores who think “meat is tasty, tasty murder”.
>>. I don’t agree with it, I think it’s silly.
Please then, stop calling yourself vegan. For all of us who actually give a shit. You have a diet, we have a mission. It’s as much a political movement as it is a personal choice.
However, I’d probably be your friend in real life,
>>Sorry, I don’t befriend hypocrites.
The problem here is that not only are you self-righteous, but you think that makes you better than others. Therefore, I wouldn’t KNOW what prop 2 is (all caps makes me more correct, as well) and I’m not a vegan. We’ll fine, be stuck up, but not on my blog. You might never see this comment since I banned you, but if your IP changes and you come back, then don’t expect anything but the same treatment. It’s my website, I can do what I like with it, so don’t cry about how vegans’ are always having their rights abused and it’s just SO hard for you to live with everyone hating you.
Wow- what a douche. Good on you for not acting like ‘Those Damn Vegans.’ That’s the attitude that makes people consider vegans to be preachy & obnoxious. You seem like a cool guy however, benjo. Have a great day. In case you wondered, I eat fish, no other meats, but I have to have my cheese.
Hey Drake -
Thanks for the support. And just for the record, I don’t hate you for eating cheese, :p
[...] there was a bit of a hissy fit in my recent post about vegan cross-contamination issues. At first I got a little offended and was rude, but when I toned it back and tried to extend an [...]
Benjo,
Your post made me think a little bit. This is one of the reasons why I have a hard time eating out, and I think I am caught somewhere in between you and “those damn vegans.”
I’m working on trying to relax a little, though. Going on a crusade might have its place at times, but the only way we are going to get people to truly consider veganism is to portray this lifestyle as perfectly normal and most of all, livable. Getting worked up over one micro-sized piece of cheese is not going to help you, your cause, or the animals.
I am considering becoming a vegan, or perhaps a vegetarian (idk if I can live without cheese lol), and I think I would definitely be the type that understands that OBVIOUSLY there is going to be some cross contamination everywhere, simply because that is how the world works.
I’m glad to know that I wouldn’t be the only one to think this, and I’m glad to know that vegan-ism (is that a word?) is not just some silly cause to get the world to feel the same way I do. I don’t have the time or the willpower to change the world of it’s ways, just my own.
Keep up the good work ^_^
Great post, thanks for being brave enough to write it. I think there’s a fine line between being vegan (a.k.a., doing the right thing) and just being obnoxious. I’ve had similar arguments with people on my own blog who seem to believe that the entire world revolves around them. The truth of the matter is that it does not… so all we can do as vegans is what we feel is right for ourselves, for the animals, for the earth, or for whatever other reasons we’ve made that lifestyle choice.
Ultimately as vegans who choose to eat out at a restaurant, we need to accept that we’re giving up a certain amount of control. If that is unacceptable to someone, that’s fine, but in that case- stay home and cook for yourself… that is the only way you will ever be able to know for certain what is in the food you are eating. I don’t think it’s fair for the uber-vegan elite out there to look down their noses and attack people who don’t live up to their expectations. I am much more concerned with making the right choices, such as not buying or purchasing meat or dairy products than I am with being hyper-paranoid that my food at a restaurant may or may not have been cooked next to meat or cheese. Sure I’d prefer that not happen, but it’s reality unless I opt to just stay home, and I choose to accept that.
I’m not saying that people who don’t like it need to take it and shut-up, though I also don’t expect that every restaurant will adopt the same high standards for cooking that I do at home.
I don’t buy leather or fur, yet I still wear leather items that I’ve had from before I was a vegan. I’ve been told by certain high-and-mighty types that since I wear these items that I’m not a true vegan. Personally I think that’s a load of crap, and I’m sure that all the animals that I’m no longer eating would agree with me. At the end of the day it’s not about what anyone else thinks, it’s about what you think is right for yourself. If thinking and living this way doesn’t make me vegan enough to be a “true vegan”, than what do I care? I’m not doing it to win anyones approval or to get a fancy vegan seal of approval.
Hey Foodeater -
Thanks for the poignant comment. It’s definitely a tricky issue sometimes. For example, I have leather things that I’ve had for years but I can’t seem to bring myself to wear them unless I’m like mowing the lawn and no one will see, since I don’t want people to think I’m endorsing leather-wearing, but then anyone who knows me enough to notice would probably know that’s not the case…
Benjamin
Ah the vegan purist… always leaving such an endearing impression, no? Attacks less ‘holy’ vegans for betraying “their own kind”, and fails to see the irony! Going to your local steakhouse, and making a scene because they make their fries in the same oil as their chicken wings, is pretty fucking funny. On the other hand, if they list their fries under “vegetarian items” or something like that–then sure, tell them that’s not okay.
I’m L8 to this thread but I just wanted to add my comments, and support for Ben’s perspective. My reasons for going vegan are similar: ethics first, environment second, health third. As for ingredients, I have the same outlook. I don’t really care if there are minute amounts of animal ingredients in food I eat, because if they are not an ingredient required to make the food than my consuming it is not actually supporting the industry that produces animal products. This is the most important thing to me by far. And as Ben pointed out, cross contamination is not inconsistent with any of his (and my) goals as vegans.
I also wanted to echo Bella’s sentiments about how we portray our lifestyle. If we really want to do the most good for animals it behooves us to show that veganism is perfectly normal and, most importantly, easily achievable. If people think they have to eat all kinds of weird foods and carefully scrutinize how their food is prepared whenever they eat out they are much less likely to see it as something they can do.
When it comes to trying to sway people towards vegetarianism or veganism I find that it is much more effective to lead by example than to preach. Being adversarial is bound to turn people off, but I have found that when people see that what I do is rooted in a desire to do the right thing, that there is nothing strange about it, that it has many benefits to oneself and the world, they become more open to it. I think that trying to explain our viewpoint as objectively as possible has the most potential to do good.
P.S. – Ben, I followed you link from Ecomodder, this is a great site!
Hey Alex -
Thanks for the kind comment and I’m glad you like the site,
thanks !! very helpful post!
I just found your website. I love this post. I don’t understand (and I’m newly vegan so it may still be a mystery to me) anywho, I don’t understand why being vegan is this huge competition. People attack vegans because we attack ourselves. I’m recently reteaching myself to be a bit more tolerant of non vegans. I started off on the whole nazi vegan road and then stopped. I didn’t want someone’s first impression of veganism to be of some wacked out chick that was unable to bend. I applaud you for realizing that not everything is black and white in the world. You give me hope for being vegan
Hi Amberlyn,
Thanks so much for the kind comment. I was just thinking about this today, in fact. The more normal we are, the more normal veganism becomes, after all.
I’m vegan because I care about my health, and that’s the only reason.
If somebody wants to classify me as “not vegan” because I don’t believe animals have greater rights than humans, so be it.
Vegans could be teaching others about the health benefits of their diet, and share their ethical and environmental concerns without being belligerent.
I think it’s important to remember we all have freedom of choice, whether we’re vegans or meat eaters. Who cares what’s on somebody else’s plate?
Hello all, I class myself as vegetarian, I do not eat meat or dairy products, I don’t like them, I have been like this for too many years to remember, I am 52 now. I do eat fish, I know there are a lot of other people like me who eat veg and fish, but no meat. This is a life choice, and not a label that can be attached to someone, it is my taste in foods.
I think there are very intresting posts and comments on this tread, and I just had to add my .02, especially in regard to ‘those damn vegans’. I’ve been vegan about 6 months, which is huge for me, and have pretty similar reasons as the author for going vegan, but what spurred me to do it was a diet book, not animal rights, not
my carbon footprint.
I read “Skinny Bitch”, and it really opened my eyes as to what I was putting into my body (also some vegan things like coffee, chips, liquor, sugar, etc.).
People, especially the American public, is pretty far from altruistic about their actions, you really have to start your pitch with “what is this going to do for me” and add in all the benefits. Maybe it’s not the way it should be, but it’s the way it is. Therefore, the more people you can get to relate this in any way, the more overall good you do. I would rather have 100 vegans that think like this, that one uncompromising, alienating, ’super vegan’ (that’s mine btw, I just coined it). Why? Because that’s 100x less meat, 100x less footprint, and 100x better PR.
Not everyone lives in California, if I went into a restaurant in Texas and threw a fit over cross contamination when a reasonable effort was made, I would be laughed at and would come across as a narrow-minded person. Instead, someone might ask me how I lost 25 pounds in the last 6 months and I can give them my book and not look like an elitist or whatever people in Texas like to call us.
Get it? Change minds by example, and be the best example you can be.